Posts by Cold Steel

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Cold Steel

mP: First of all its Testimonium Flavianium.

Yes it is, my mistake. It was a copy and paste error. Let me rephrase: Do you have any idea what the Testimonium Flavianium is?

You're the one who said that it contained nothing of the Jesus in the Bible. You were completely incorrect. Now, instead of admitting you made an error, you reply with another criticism. What difference does it make when the word "Christian" appeared? Does that make a difference?

mP:Lots of people back then did miracles, Vespasian supposedly cured a blind man. Considering it doesnt say what marvelous things he did, this is hardly specific in pin pointing an individual.

Look, no one is even reading this thread any more. Your observation, above, is irrelevant. Vespasian was first supreme commander of the military force that destroyed Jerusalem. Then he was emperor. Do you think anyone is going to dispute him? But how about Jesus? Where are those who disputed him at the time?

Also, please show me where I lied, just so I know.

Oh, and if you go to college, try taking some theology courses while you're at it. You seem to be getting all your information from questionable sites.

38

We Are Not Witnesses For JEHOVAH - According to the Bible

by The Searcher in

jehovah gave his worshippers a prophesied new name, (isa.

62:2; acts 11:26) but in j.f.

rutherford's eyes it was not distinctive enough from a marketing point of view, (having restructured "the business" after its severe contraction in the 20s due to his failed 'vision') so he came up with a name which featured the creator's distinctive name, "jehovah's witnesses" - a business strategy employed in those days by kellog and many others.. we now describe them as 'designer names'.. here are the scriptural proofs, but of course, they may count for nothing in some people's eyes because the "glorious ones" in brooklyn say differently!

Cold Steel

WasBlind: [quotes] "Christians are supposed to be witnesses for Jesus not for Jehovah"

What Rutherford and the others didn't know is that Jesus and Jehovah were one and the same. That's why they have the same titles and designations. When man fell, the Father (El, Elyon) appointed his Son, Jehovah, to be the intercessor between him and man. At the conclusion of the Millennium, once all men have been judged and assigned to their respective glories and the earth has been cleansed, glorified and redeemed, Jehovah will present it back to the Father and it will rejoin the Father's dominion of worlds.

Both Jesus and Jehovah will judge the nations, according to the scriptures, but John reports that "the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22) Both are also the beginning and the end and the king of kings. Then, when Jesus told the Jews, "Before Abraham was, I AM," it was a tacit admission that he was Jehovah, and the Jews acted accordingly by becoming enraged and picking up stones to stone him.

So traditonal Christians win either way!

38

We Are Not Witnesses For JEHOVAH - According to the Bible

by The Searcher in

jehovah gave his worshippers a prophesied new name, (isa.

62:2; acts 11:26) but in j.f.

rutherford's eyes it was not distinctive enough from a marketing point of view, (having restructured "the business" after its severe contraction in the 20s due to his failed 'vision') so he came up with a name which featured the creator's distinctive name, "jehovah's witnesses" - a business strategy employed in those days by kellog and many others.. we now describe them as 'designer names'.. here are the scriptural proofs, but of course, they may count for nothing in some people's eyes because the "glorious ones" in brooklyn say differently!

Cold Steel

Well said, Searcher! The apostles weren't special witnesses of the Father, they were special witnesses of Jesus. And though Jesus gave all glory to the Father, the Father and the Spirit both bore witness of Christ.

Thanks for posting!

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Cold Steel

mP: You have not quoted the text in full. There’s an entire chapter surrounding that text. you again failed to provide links. Something to hide?

Tell me, mP, do you know what the Testimonium Vlavianum is?

Let me enlighten you. The Testimonium Vlavianum is one passage in Josephus’ Jewish Antiquties. That passage is, and only is, Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63. The entire Testimonium Vlavianum is as follows:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.

That’s it. What comes before is not part of the Testimonium Vlavianum and what comes after that is not part of the Testimonium Vlavianum. It is only that one passage, which you maintain is “not even talking about the Jesus of the Bible.”

Now I quoted that passage in both the standard version and the Arabic version and have had to defend myself from what?

Your ignorance. Remember what I said? Don’t resort to name calling and check your facts. You violated both...again...and now you look like an ass. Yes, there are other chapters in Josephus that have nothing to do with the Jesus of the Bible. But they’re not the Testimonium Vlavianum.

You also failed to discuss who Jesus, the son of Damneus, is. Nearly all scholars acknowledge the TF to be an insertion.

No, not an insertion. Again, you’re wrong. Just about everyone agrees that the TF is not “entirely genuine,” but the number of people who believe it was a complete fabrication is much smaller. If one reads the Arabic version, which I cited, one will see a much more realistic rendition:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

This version may actually be genuine. Notice Josephus doesn’t call Jesus the Messiah, but reports that “his disciples” reported that he [Jesus] appeared to them after his crucifixion and that “he was perhaps the Messiah.” So he puts that term in their mouths.

You also said I failed to discuss who Jesus, the son of Damneus, is. I assume he was the son of Damneus; he certainly has nothing to do with the Testimonium Vlavianum, nor does he figure into any discussion of Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah.

Lastly I called you a liar, because you failed to address damning problems with your assertions. I have shown that you have omitted very important facts because they are inconvenient and pose real problems to the credability to your argument. That is being dishonest and a liar.

As I have taken great pains to show you, mP, that you are the one who was incorrect. Again, you didn’t check your facts and you resorted to name calling. Are you now going to be man enough to apologize?

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Cold Steel

mP, I have no interest in debating you, because you ignore my responses, then later make outlandish claims as to what was said. You know what I think about your arguments that show that 70 cannot become 3 million in 200 years? Nothing. I have no opinion, that’s why I didn’t give one. It doesn’t seem to bother biblical scholars or historians, so I don’t care. It’s not a deal breaker for me. You also accuse me of citing “scriptures and claim[ing] they are talking about Jesus when his name or title are never mentioned.”

You’re speaking, no doubt, of my citation of Isaiah 53 and the last part of chapter 52. This scripture is universally acknowledged by Christian scholars as referring to Jesus, and I wholeheartedly agree. Prophecy is such that one must study it in the context of the prophets themselves. Trying to seriously discuss it with someone who doesn’t even know the basics of prophecy and scriptural exegesis is like discussing astrophysics with a six-year old.

mP: Good too see you do not attempt to quote or link or anything because if anybody reads the text its clear you are lying and wrong. You delibrately only present the first half of the paragraph because the entire chapter is about Jesus the son of Damneus who was a real person according to Josephus. Anyone can read the entire chapter, and see for themselves the Jesus mentioned is never Jesus son of god, and it makes no sense to talk and use his first name with qualification to refer to one character and then slip in a line about Jesus of Nazareth without letting the reader know its a different person. [Emphasis mine.]

Well, this is a wonderful example, on a platter, of what you frequently do. In our discussion on Josephus, you said, and I quote:

“The Testimonium Flavianum is not even talking about the Jesus of the Bible.”

Actually, it’s entirely about the Jesus of the Bible. But since you have openly accused me of lying, which I’ve never accused you or anyone else on this board of, here, in full, is the Testimonium Vlavianum:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.

Now how you can say this isn’t about the Jesus of the Bible is beyond me. Even if one believes it was muddled with, well, let’s look at the Arabic version, which is deemed more accurate:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

In short, I’m not going to waste my time going back to previous discussions and showing you to be full of hooey. You think coming in and making accusations will save your complete lack of scholarship. Since I’m assuming you’re probably still in high school, I’ll give you a few tips. First, admit it when you’re wrong, check and recheck your sources, and never resort to name calling as a primary means of defense. In fact, never use it, period, if you can help it.

Smiddy: ...performing so-called miracles is not and should not be the criteria for believing in GOD, didn’t the magic practicing priests of Egypt also perform miracles? Exodus 7...according to the bible that is.

DeWandelaar: have you personally seen him do the miracles? Have you seen him waking the dead? No...it is “history” according to you but “history” is written by people with an agenda.

Well, that’s the issue now, isn’t it? Miracles should NEVER be used as a means of determining the truthfulness of any person or group. On the other hand, the gifts of the Spirit follow them that believe.

I can’t prove the miracles that occurred in our church history any more than we Christians of today can prove the miracles in the days of Christ. But when Muhammad had his visions, and when other messianic claimants other than Jesus had their mystical experiences, how many witnesses were there? None. When Joan of Arc had her visions and heard her voices, how many could testify of it? Zip. And when Ellen G. White had her visions and experiences, how many witnesses could back her claims? Again, zero.

How about Jesus? Well, his apostles saw his miracles and later attested to them. John the Baptist testified of his messiahship, and Peter, James and John saw him on the mount of transfiguration. The apostles testified of Jesus’ death and resurrection and they also witnessed whatever it was Jesus said and did during the 40 days following the resurrection, when he taught them.

In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, many witnessed the miracles done in those early days. Each time a major event happened, whether it was the restoration of the two priesthoods or the reception of the vision of the degrees of glory, at least one other person was present who could testify of it. The Book of Mormon plates were seen by three witnesses in addition to Smith. These men saw the gold plates, the sword of Laban, the interpreters and the angel. Additionally, they heard the voice of God bearing witness that it was true and that they would be responsible for the bearing of their testimonies for the rest of their lives. Some people thought Smith deceived them, or hypnotized them somehow, but the Lord, perhaps foreseeing that, allowed eight men to see and handle the plates in a wooded grove. No one but them were present, there was no voice, no angel, no light—just the sound of birds.

So critics who thought that Smith deceived the three had to contend with the eight witnesses who saw nothing that might be considered mystical, and those who claimed Smith made a set of plates out of lead or other material had to then contend with those who saw the angel and heard the voice of God. Either way a critic wished to go, the Lord would put them in check by providing the other way. “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”

As the church grew and priesthood authority was restored, Smith was commanded to form a quorum of twelve apostles, as the ancient church had. And many of these men then experienced visions of their own and performed many miracles, as one would expect. I’ve spent years studying these miracles—miracles where the people were fed as in the days of Moses, or when their enemies were turned aside by mighty storms that suddenly manifested themselves. In one march led by Joseph, the people began to murmur and complain against the Lord. Joseph rebuked the men, saying, “Many of you think I’m a boy,” but he reminded them of his calling and, in tears, warned them that the destroying angel of the Lord would visit the camp. The men were stunned into silence, and within hours a devastating wave of cholera hit the camp and several died. Two, who later became apostles, said they learned then to bear their burdens in faith, and one of them had to remind the saints of this incident while wending their way to Utah. And it had its desired effect.

Apostle Orson Hyde dedicated the holy land for the return of the Jews and he had a magnificent vision while in his cabin in the ship. “The vision of the Lord, like clouds of light, burst into my view. … The cities of London, Amsterdam, Constantinople and Jerusalem, all appeared in succession before me, and the Spirit said unto me, ‘Here are many of the children of Abraham whom I will gather to the land that I gave to their fathers; and here also is the field of your labors.’” So it wasn’t just Joseph Smith. Other apostles also had great visions and manifestations. In other words, it wasn’t a one-man band.

The significance of all this is that just because people haven’t heard this doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. If you investigate it and say, “Well, I don’t buy it,” at least you can’t say that no one claims to have heard from God in 2,000 years. My own belief is that God is speaking today just as he did anciently, and that he will continue speaking until he returns:

For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated. And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed. And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days. And they shall ago forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.
Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth. Wherefore, fear and tremble, O ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed in them shall be fulfilled.
And verily I say unto you, that they who go forth, bearing these tidings unto the inhabitants of the earth, to them is power given to seal both on earth and in heaven, the unbelieving and rebellious; yea, verily, to seal them up unto the day when the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the wicked without measure—unto the day when the Lord shall come to recompense unto every man according to his work, and measure to every man according to the measure which he has measured to his fellow man.
Wherefore the voice of the Lord is unto the ends of the earth, that all that will hear may hear: Prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh; and the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth. And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; for they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; they seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth fold and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments; and also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—the weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh....

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Cold Steel

Comatose: If a true manifestation of himself was made, billions would act. He could positively change the fate of billions. Why wouldn't he want to help the entire earth?

Yes, some would panic; others would get religion for awhile, but when another miracle wasn’t forthcoming, they would fall away until someone else with a bag of tricks showed up.

What you say makes sense on its face, but it doesn’t work in the real world. Human nature is such that the only thing that will permanently change hearts is the Spirit of God. Not all people are like Paul, who had his vision on the road he was on to persecute Christians. There are many who care nothing about religion and wouldn’t obey a missive from God if it were delivered by an angel with a sword of fire. As hard as it may be to believe, many people simply want to be left alone to live life according to their own desires. Again, God will not abrogate free agency, and by revealing himself to the world, he would only seal their condemnation.

Case in point: the return of Jesus. According to Zechariah, when Jesus returns at the conclusion of Armageddon in Jerusalem, the Jews will immediately realize the Messiah’s identity and they will be converted and offer up great lamentation. Many of their fellow Jews will be dead, slain by the beast mentioned by John in Revelation. But many of the enemies of the Jews, the ones who live “round about” Israel and who allied themselves with the beast, will stubbornly resist. Zechariah writes:

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. (Zech. 14:16-20)

These will be the Muslim nations, and despite Jesus’ return in glory, which they will see with their own eyes, many will be so bitter that they will not obey the Lord’s directive to come to Jerusalem and make peace by celebrating the feast of the tabernacles (and the prophet specifically mentions Egypt by name). These remaining people will be guilty of being deceived by the beast, but they will be good, decent people, else they would have been destroyed at the Lord’s coming. Alas, as I said, they also will be stubborn. Acknowledging Muhammad as a false prophet and the beast as being an enemy to God will go against everything they believed and fought for. But the Lord will then visit them with famine, drought and plague until they acknowledge him and go up to Jerusalem.

The scripture doesn’t say it, but I suspect the Jews also will have a difficult time making their own peace with their former enemies. But then, they will be established once and for all in Jerusalem and will have their temple back. And all their expectations of their Messiah saving them also will be fulfilled (and this is one reason their fathers rejected Jesus, because he did not come to save them from the Romans, their current enemies).

Why wouldn’t god manifest himself in a concrete way to us today?

All I can tell you is that he will. John writes: “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” (Rev. 14:6-7)

John also predicted a great earthquake in the last days, then added:

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev. 6:15-17)

So far from converting, many will attempt to flee from God and his judgment.

Supposedly, Jesus showed miraculous signs. God performed miraculous signs back in Bible times. Can you explain to me why we no longer see such miraculous signs?

Yes, and many miracles were shown in the days of Joseph Smith. The sick were healed, the dead raised, people received visions and revelations and the Lord was with his people. You just don’t know our history. If you PM me, I can get you the details. I think it’s a marvelous story. I think many of you guys are absolutely correct about God and his revelations to mankind. Back in 1967-71 I talked to every pastor, priest, reverend and preacher I could find and I asked them one question: why, when men need it more than at any other time in history, does God not speak to men through apostles and prophets as he did anciently? No one could give me what I thought was an intelligent answer. In September 1968, my father took my family out to a Utah ranch to visit an old war buddy of his. I struck up a friendship with my father’s friend’s son, who had just returned from a Mormon mission, and in 1971 my family joined the church, with the exception of my father, a Southern Baptist. He read some anti-Mormon stuff, but even so, years later, he also was baptized.

My point is that I think your question is perfectly natural. Most people are just simply unaware of what’s happened in our day. I study it relentlessly and am still impressed by it.

mP: What if there was a troll who claims the exodus is true, and shows several scriptures supposedly holding prophecies about Jesus and then he is shown to be incorrect and then they quit because they cant handle the truth. What if that person was you?

Then logic would have ceased to exist. I’ve noticed, mP, that your primary mode of answering arguments isn’t through scholarly assessments or a well thought out appeal to history, theology, ancient scriptures, anthropology or even your whacked out and inconsistent personal philosophy. What do you do? You resort to petty name calling. First you refer to LDS sacred vestments as “magic underwear.” When that wore thin, you began slinging around the word “cult” when it was apparent that you knew nothing about either the LDS church or cults. Now you’re bandying about the word “troll.” But what have you actually said?

Nothing at all.

I’m willing to let readers decide who’s the troll here. As for me, I find it difficult to argue with someone who is uneducated, uninformed and, frankly, in my view, not too bright. If your memory is so short that you forgot that you argued that a Josephus passage referred to someone else named Jesus—not the one Christians revere, but to false messiahs of the same name—and you were totally WRONG, then no one can argue with you. So kindly crawl back under your bridge and give it a rest unless you have something substantive to say, other than empty pontifications.

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Cold Steel

Mr. Freeze: Maybe people lack faith in god because they have never heard him. If he really wanted people to worship him, he should make himself evident. Why wouldn't he? I mean when it is something that is as important as your everlasting wellbeing that is being decided by your belief in god, I think he's kind of a dick for hiding.

What if he isn’t hiding? What if he has a church on Earth and is speaking to man through that church as he did anciently?

It would be so simple for himself to reveal himself to the whole world.

In what way would you like to see him revealed? If you knew that God had a church and was speaking to man, would you rush out and join it? If he spoke from Heaven and revealed that church, would you join it?

I don’t know what you’d do, but many people wouldn’t. And there are primarily two reasons he doesn’t do that. First, he has placed man on Earth to live by faith, not by sight. We are going through a period of being tried and tested, which brings us to the second reason. If God revealed himself in some miraculous way to the entire earth, man would then be obligated to abide in his commandment, and those who wouldn’t would find themselves under a condemnation they could not bear. Being merciful, and not wishing to abrogate our free agency, he has determined to provide the light, but to lead people to it.

Jesus said, “I stand at the door and knock....” It’s up to them to open the door. Those who don’t will still affect their situation in the world to come, but they won’t be nearly under the condemnation they would if Jesus revealed himself to them as he did Saul (Paul) and they rejected him. In other words, if Paul had not heeded his vision on the way to Damascus, he would have been under much greater condemnation than if he’d continued his life in ignorance. We’re judged on what we know and how we react to it. “To those whom much is given, much is expected.”

Cold Steel, those "prophets" vary so greatly in their teachings how could you say their revelations are coming from one source? That doesn't make any sense. Maybe god should speak up so everyone is on the same page.

I never said they come from the same source. The OP asked why God hadn’t spoken in 2,000 years, then added the question as to why no one had even claimed he had spoken. I merely pointed out that there are claimants. My personal conviction is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one which has been established of God and has his apostolic authority restored through the laying on of hands. We call it the Restoration of the Gospel because we believe that the church had reached a condition in which it could not be reformed. The authority and the spiritual gifts were gone and could only return by an active act of God.

According to a number of respected scholars are convinced that the so-called Gospel of Thomas, which is part of the Nag Hammadi Library found in Egypt in 1947, contains many of the true sayings of Jesus. One of these is the well known parable of the woman and the jar. My favorite translation is:

Jesus says: The Kingdom of the Father is like a woman who takes a vessel of flour and sets out on a long road. The handle of the vessel broke: the flour spilled out on the road behind her without her knowing it and stopping it. When she arrived at the house she put the vessel down and found it was empty. (Doresse, 97 (101))

In many of the early literature, the church was depicted as a woman. In this case, the woman carries the broken jar, which is seen as the loss of the church’s spiritual gifts. It happened so slowly that she didn’t notice. Eventually she returned home and the meal (flour) was gone. The empty form was left, but not the substance. It could not be re-gathered from the road, but required the woman to gain new flour. Thus the parable is about the apostasy from the gospel and the need for new truth.

10

Going To Other Churches

by Cold Steel in

okay, what happens when a congregation member, a relatively new convert, approaches an elder and says, "hey, jim.

just wanted to let you know that i'm going to have to leave today's meeting as soon as it breaks....".

"really," says jim.

Cold Steel

Lois: Cold Steel, I am curious what you will tell us, is the next part. LOL Because I cannot comprehend any JDub saying those words in any kind of a sentence.

No, it was completely hypothetical. I just wondered how deep those waters were when the Society forbade visits to other churches. I mean, didn’t they say they should know about other churches? Even the apostles preached and attended the synagogues.

Also, keep in mind that I’ve never been to a Kingdom Hall, so I really don’t know how the elders would handle someone who wanted to research other religions.

Remember, the Jehovah's Witnesses don’t have, or claim to have, the keys of the kingdom which bind in Heaven and Earth, which means that there is no way they can cut someone off (disfellowship) someone on Earth and that it will be in effect in Heaven. Disfellowshiped people should have no fear or trepidation regarding their status because ultimately a kind and loving God isn’t going to destroy someone just because some elders disfellowship someone. After all, have you ever wondered why they call it disfellowshiping instead of excommunication? The latter is defined as “A formal ecclesiastical censure that deprives a person of the right to belong to a church.” Well, elders can’t excommunicate because they don’t claim to represent a church, nor do they have the ecclesiastical authority to revoke a person’s baptism, which is what excommunication is.

So if what they do is not excommunication, what is disfellowshiping? To understand that, Jehovah's Witnesses need to understand what fellowshipping is.

fel·low·ship (fµl“½-sh¹p”) n. 1.a. The condition of sharing similar interests, ideals, or experiences, as by reason of profession, religion, or nationality. b. The companionship of individuals in a congenial atmosphere and on equal terms. 2. A close association of friends or equals sharing similar interests. 3. Friendship; comradeship. 4.a. The financial grant made to a fellow in a college or university. b. The status of having been awarded such a grant. c. A foundation established for the awarding of such a grant.

That’s where the elders and the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses have their members snowed. Disfellowshiping isn’t revoking someone’s baptism nor does it mean that Yahweh will recognize the action in any way. It’s simply a means of control. Like smoke, it has no actual substance. So if a person is disfellowshiped for any reason, it’s 1) between them and God, and 2) between them and the Organization. The Society has no authority to revoke someone’s baptism because they do not possess the keys of authority necessary to do so. And if someone tells you they have this apostolic authority, ask them where they got it.

After all, when you’re disfellowshiped, who is it who signs the papers and actually commits the act? If it’s not the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses, who also don’t have the keys, who is it? Chances are it’s a local action.

Jesus said to the apostle Peter ( Matthew 16:19):

And I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.

Apparently Peter, at the time, did not possess these keys of authority. So how did Jesus confer them? The scriptures don’t say, but it was most likely through hands-on-head ordination. Since they were given to the top leaders of the church, one surmises that if one isn’t an ordained leader of a church (as the WTBTS admits they’re not), then they don’t have the requisite keys.

The bottom line here is that Jehovah's Witnesses need not fear being disfellowshiped and are free to follow the dictates of their hearts, including having friends who aren’t members, attending other churches, reading their literature, questioning their doctrine, visiting this website, celebrating birthdays (which isn’t condemned anywhere in scripture), pursuing higher education, accept blood transfusions and whatever else you want to do that isn’t outright sin.

So far, I’m appalled at the things you guys can get disfellowshiped for. It’s just incredible.

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

Cold Steel

Smiddy: Why has this GOD been so silent these past 2000 years, when there have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence.

... The fact remains we have never heard from GOD, any GOD, or even “a” GOD, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years.

What about Muhammad, circa 600 A.D.? What about the so-called “letters from God” that were said to float down from heaven from time to time in the Roman and Orthodox churches? And more significantly (to me), what about Joseph Smith and the Restoration declared by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints beginning in 1830? (It claims to hold the keys of the kingdom of God, through the instrumentality of holy beings who have systematically restored it, prophecy and all of the ancient spiritual gifts; it has a quorum of twelve apostles, quorum of seventy and believes in the restoration of revelation via angelic ministration and the Spirit of God.) Following the Latter-day Saints, Ellen G. White, several decades later, instituted the Adventist movement based on her personal revelations. Many of her doctrines found their way into the beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Although the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses claims not to have revelation—the kind enjoyed by the ancient church—it does claim both “light” and “new light.” But the way I see it, anytime God communicates with man, either through the Spirit of God or inspired impressions or through visions, prophecy and angelic ministrations—it’s all revelation. The Governing Body can’t have it both ways. It either has a line to God or it doesn’t.

Are the days of prophets over? The apostle John didn’t think so. Speaking of the battle of Armageddon, he wrote:

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth [referenced by Zechariah, 4:3, 11]. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake....

This is the same earthquake that splits the Mount of Olives and is where Jesus returns and meets the Jews.

John specifically calls the two witnesses “prophets” and clearly says their ministry will be in Jerusalem, a prophecy the Society denies. One assumes these prophets will have the same powers and authority that ancient prophets held, so will they be beholden to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society? Some religious sects believe that the two will be ancient prophets, such as Moses and Elijah, or Enoch and Elijah; however, there’s no evidence to support that.

In fact, there’s nothing to prevent the Lord from calling and speaking to prophets in our day and in our dispensation. So to say that the day of prophets is over is a gross mistatement and one that is roundly contradicted by the scriptures.

92

Ouija Board!!!

by XPeterX in

to those who don't believe in this shyt:you'd better not post here .

ok...so you ever used it?what experiences do you have?were you able to summon a demon?what did he tell you?what did you see?i'm really curious and i wanna try it!.

Cold Steel

I’m not implying that anything killed them. I’m saying they go there to commit suicide, and there are 70-100+ a year who die there. The Aokigahara, or Jukai (“Sea of Trees”), Forest in fact, is so dense that the authorities only do a suicide sweep once a year, so it’s not unusual for visitors to stumble on bodies, or to see spirits.

Forest workers sometimes find bodies and bring them to the local stations for processing. They then play a simple game to see who has to sleep in the room with the corpse, as if it is left alone it is said to scream in the night and to search out the living for comfort.

Death in the Aokigahara Forest

The forest is said to be one of the most haunted areas in the world and the most haunted in Japan. It was featured on one of the Destination Truth episodes on television, and the show’s host, Josh Gates, while walking down a dark trail in total darkness with only a small light, swears he stepped around a tree and came face-to-face with a young Japanese man standing in the way. He quickly called for the cameraman, who had night vision apparatus, but upon scanning the area, no one was seen. Josh said the man could not have been there in the middle of the trail with no flashlight or other means of finding his way, nor was there anywhere to run. The forest is dark even in the middle of the day, and at night, one needs to have a light. The cameraman also later captured the image of a man, again with no flashlight of any kind, standing by a tree. Suddenly, as if the man was on an elevator, he just slipped into the ground.

Yeah, I realize such things can be faked, but there are so many stories of others that sound so eerily similar that in my view the stories are plausible. I’m not suggesting that one believe such accounts, but if they doubt them, find a place and investigate it. Look for old forts, old grave yards, old asylums, old prisons and, of course, battlefields. Asylums and prisons are especially productive if you want to investigate whether there are spirits or not. Or you can just sit around and pontificate about things you know nothing about. Don’t get me wrong. We need skeptics, but we need skeptics who are willing to be objective. And just because you don’t believe in spirits doesn’t mean you can go into an old prison or asylum and spend the night without being scared out of your mind. Or have your mind play tricks on you. So take photos, bring recording devices, extra batteries and don’t use Ouija boards, even if you think they’re nonsense. It may even be a source of fun to do things like that. But like Dr. John Markway says in the MGM classic, The Haunting, “A closed mind is the worst defense against the supernatural.”

Great movie. Another great quote by Markway:
“...When we become involved in a supernatural event, we're scared out of our wits just because it's unknown. The night cry of a child. A face on the wall. Knockings, bangings. What's there to be afraid of? You weren't threatened. It was harmless, like a joke that doesn't come out.”